you’ve already allocated that budget though, it’d be real hard to engage costuming services and then nickle and dime them on a few extras, as costuming has access to warehouses and backstock and likely your wardrobe head would have to advise the AI artists on costuming anyway, so the money would go to consulting.
casting is similar, depending on production either one house will engage all casting including background, or you might split principle and location services, but is the VX team making the AI extras is cheaper than the casting companies who have been doing it for decades?
also, creating bad will by fucking over union staff and industry relationships might cost more in the long run.
edit: also, the added costs of:
before: actor walks down street past some extras
after: actor walks down street past several carefully calibrated blue screens and mo cap spikes, past an extra dressed in mo-cap suit, who is then edited out and replaced with a fake extra…
isn’t it just cheaper and easier to just put the mocap guy in a cowboy hat and leather chaps?
Wardrobe rarely interacts with background, I spent over a decade doing background work and I can count the number of times I was given wardrobe on my hands, generally only if it’s a sci-fi or similarly abnormal setting, otherwise they just ask you to come dressed in X or Y style clothes.
I think it was you I just agreed with on a different comment and you’re right here too.
I only dealt with wardrobe once when I worked as an extra… Back in 1996 on a made for TV civil war movie called “Andersonville”… But we were portraying POWs so they wanted to sufficiently dirty us up so it made sense.
Yep it was haha, and yeah I did easily 100-200 shoots and only ever saw wardrobe or makeup a few times, usually my agent would just tell me the general dress code for the shoot like casual, formal, business, whatever.
I actually had this whole thought process and neglected to put it in my reply.
I had meant to start with “when you have to dress extras due to it being a period piece… or have featured extras” and say it’s still (probably) cheaper than AI.
I’m gonna be real with you, you really don’t understand how the industry works, and have made some really wild napkin math to support your argument, referring to some crappy CG models that someone probably made in an afternoon as “AI” definitely doesn’t help in that respect. You keep saying the money is “already allocated” but that isn’t how it works, you pay people by the hour and the wardrobe staff would need to deal with each extra separately which takes time, and have more physical wardrobe to do that with, we are talking about 10x the amount of time and wardrobe or more in the case of a period piece.
Further, they don’t just throw money in a bucket for all casting, with the exception of the leads everyone is being paid by the hour, it doesn’t matter how much money was allocated that’s not how any of this works. This is why cost overruns are so common in movies, except for a small handful of people at the top (Producer, Director, Lead Actors) every single person on the set is being paid by the hour, and every MINUTE that the set is active for costs the production money. The per hour costs for shoots can be absolutely staggering, it adds up very quickly, and you are just casually saying “hey lets get a bunch of background people in costume, it won’t cost much!” but even getting that many people on and off the set takes time, which costs money… LOTS of money.
Also the “bad will” part is bullshit too, most background performers are not union, in fact it can be VERY difficult to get union status as a background performer. The union does not care, and these CG actors are no different than the cardboard, inflatable, or mannequins that are commonly used in crowd scenes.
I guarantee you these CG models were cheaper than the extras they replaced, and I would suggest you stop speaking with authority about things you clearly don’t understand, I say this as someone who has worked both as a background performer and a crew member on literally hundreds of productions over multiple decades. Please quit your bullshit.
I am sorry if that was impolite, but you are stating facts that are entirely wrong, and it helps nobody to spread disinformation like this.
I have also worked as background, supporting and co-star (although mostly in Europe, I’ve only done short films in the US). And I will admit that the majority of my resume is theatre, followed by VO.
When I say “already allocated”, I’m speaking generally and colloquially about how you can’t attribute a PO log for VX to Talent or Wardrobe on the fly (at least not in a professional shop). I mean… I guess you could VOID out something and reattribute, but it probably wouldn’t look good in an audit as you’d get a massive variance; or if it’s as cheap as you say maybe it could come out of the 10% contingency… but again that’s not very professional and in a large scale production the auditors would come knocking.
Usually that’s all locked up in software — your call sheet, PL sheet, PO log are all preferably generated from the same stack so it can all roll back up.
And I will defend that wardrobe budget is preallocated, (with projected variance baked in and petty cash allowances, too as BTL lines) in the topsheet as an above the line expense. Line items including properties, pieces and manhours are then drawn down as POs + fringes.
As you will know from working BGs, your call sheet will have stipulations about what to wear and you will be triaged into the scene based on how well you did it. I know I’ve made a half assed attempt before just so I can lurk at the back one day — these stipulations will have been made with some of the wardrobe department.
Although you “pay people by the hour” you still need to budget how much to pay people + variance + Fringes before you go into production. They don’t “throw money in a bucket” literally but you’re confusing BTL line item hours with ATL topsheet summaries which are (metaphorical) buckets.
Background and main talent are separated in StudioBinder (not sure about Movie Magic) but generating bg paydays as a portion of budget is definitely a common function.
Not if you have a library of extras that can be inserted into a video clip in post production. They had a budget and the render quality reflects that. I’m sure it will only get better and cheaper.
well that technically exists without “AI”, it’s just regular VFX. No AI needed.
The AI part is to prevent paying an actor and/or an animator.
Can the AI handle realistic, non distracting fake humans when they might walk behind a tree, or a railing, or its raining…? if not then you need to employ a VX team, you can’t just tell AI to do it.
And then if you need that AI to be drafted, redrafted, changed, edited, tweaked… each iteration costs money. Is that cheaper than having someone just walk down a street?
Where I see AI coming into play is unique faces and such and organic body movement. I don’t think we’re there yet with the second, but I don’t think we’re far off either. But I agree there’s still a lot of traditional VFX.
I still don’t think it’ll be cheaper, quicker or easier than getting a bunch of people who live locally to turn up at 5am for a couple of hundred bucks and free meals for a relatively easy gig.
background is roughly $150/person/day. Surely that’s still cheaper than whatever this is?
Including costumes and hiring?
you’ve already allocated that budget though, it’d be real hard to engage costuming services and then nickle and dime them on a few extras, as costuming has access to warehouses and backstock and likely your wardrobe head would have to advise the AI artists on costuming anyway, so the money would go to consulting.
casting is similar, depending on production either one house will engage all casting including background, or you might split principle and location services, but is the VX team making the AI extras is cheaper than the casting companies who have been doing it for decades?
also, creating bad will by fucking over union staff and industry relationships might cost more in the long run.
edit: also, the added costs of:
before: actor walks down street past some extras
after: actor walks down street past several carefully calibrated blue screens and mo cap spikes, past an extra dressed in mo-cap suit, who is then edited out and replaced with a fake extra…
isn’t it just cheaper and easier to just put the mocap guy in a cowboy hat and leather chaps?
Wardrobe rarely interacts with background, I spent over a decade doing background work and I can count the number of times I was given wardrobe on my hands, generally only if it’s a sci-fi or similarly abnormal setting, otherwise they just ask you to come dressed in X or Y style clothes.
I think it was you I just agreed with on a different comment and you’re right here too.
I only dealt with wardrobe once when I worked as an extra… Back in 1996 on a made for TV civil war movie called “Andersonville”… But we were portraying POWs so they wanted to sufficiently dirty us up so it made sense.
Yep it was haha, and yeah I did easily 100-200 shoots and only ever saw wardrobe or makeup a few times, usually my agent would just tell me the general dress code for the shoot like casual, formal, business, whatever.
I actually had this whole thought process and neglected to put it in my reply.
I had meant to start with “when you have to dress extras due to it being a period piece… or have featured extras” and say it’s still (probably) cheaper than AI.
I’m gonna be real with you, you really don’t understand how the industry works, and have made some really wild napkin math to support your argument, referring to some crappy CG models that someone probably made in an afternoon as “AI” definitely doesn’t help in that respect. You keep saying the money is “already allocated” but that isn’t how it works, you pay people by the hour and the wardrobe staff would need to deal with each extra separately which takes time, and have more physical wardrobe to do that with, we are talking about 10x the amount of time and wardrobe or more in the case of a period piece.
Further, they don’t just throw money in a bucket for all casting, with the exception of the leads everyone is being paid by the hour, it doesn’t matter how much money was allocated that’s not how any of this works. This is why cost overruns are so common in movies, except for a small handful of people at the top (Producer, Director, Lead Actors) every single person on the set is being paid by the hour, and every MINUTE that the set is active for costs the production money. The per hour costs for shoots can be absolutely staggering, it adds up very quickly, and you are just casually saying “hey lets get a bunch of background people in costume, it won’t cost much!” but even getting that many people on and off the set takes time, which costs money… LOTS of money.
Also the “bad will” part is bullshit too, most background performers are not union, in fact it can be VERY difficult to get union status as a background performer. The union does not care, and these CG actors are no different than the cardboard, inflatable, or mannequins that are commonly used in crowd scenes.
I guarantee you these CG models were cheaper than the extras they replaced, and I would suggest you stop speaking with authority about things you clearly don’t understand, I say this as someone who has worked both as a background performer and a crew member on literally hundreds of productions over multiple decades. Please quit your bullshit.
I am sorry if that was impolite, but you are stating facts that are entirely wrong, and it helps nobody to spread disinformation like this.
I have also worked as background, supporting and co-star (although mostly in Europe, I’ve only done short films in the US). And I will admit that the majority of my resume is theatre, followed by VO.
When I say “already allocated”, I’m speaking generally and colloquially about how you can’t attribute a PO log for VX to Talent or Wardrobe on the fly (at least not in a professional shop). I mean… I guess you could VOID out something and reattribute, but it probably wouldn’t look good in an audit as you’d get a massive variance; or if it’s as cheap as you say maybe it could come out of the 10% contingency… but again that’s not very professional and in a large scale production the auditors would come knocking.
Usually that’s all locked up in software — your call sheet, PL sheet, PO log are all preferably generated from the same stack so it can all roll back up.
And I will defend that wardrobe budget is preallocated, (with projected variance baked in and petty cash allowances, too as BTL lines) in the topsheet as an above the line expense. Line items including properties, pieces and manhours are then drawn down as POs + fringes.
As you will know from working BGs, your call sheet will have stipulations about what to wear and you will be triaged into the scene based on how well you did it. I know I’ve made a half assed attempt before just so I can lurk at the back one day — these stipulations will have been made with some of the wardrobe department.
Although you “pay people by the hour” you still need to budget how much to pay people + variance + Fringes before you go into production. They don’t “throw money in a bucket” literally but you’re confusing BTL line item hours with ATL topsheet summaries which are (metaphorical) buckets.
Background and main talent are separated in StudioBinder (not sure about Movie Magic) but generating bg paydays as a portion of budget is definitely a common function.
People. Are. Paid. By. The. Hour.
None of your budget statements are relevant, in any way. You can throw in whatever technical terms you want, they aren’t relevant.
Wardrobe is budgeted by the amount of people using it, less people using it = less budget, is simple math so difficult to understand?
You are speaking like an accountant that’s never set foot on a set before, and your technical terms are entirely financial.
my dude, you can’t pay people by the hour without having a budget first.
Probably. And it’ll look better.
Not if you have a library of extras that can be inserted into a video clip in post production. They had a budget and the render quality reflects that. I’m sure it will only get better and cheaper.
well that technically exists without “AI”, it’s just regular VFX. No AI needed.
The AI part is to prevent paying an actor and/or an animator.
Can the AI handle realistic, non distracting fake humans when they might walk behind a tree, or a railing, or its raining…? if not then you need to employ a VX team, you can’t just tell AI to do it.
And then if you need that AI to be drafted, redrafted, changed, edited, tweaked… each iteration costs money. Is that cheaper than having someone just walk down a street?
Where I see AI coming into play is unique faces and such and organic body movement. I don’t think we’re there yet with the second, but I don’t think we’re far off either. But I agree there’s still a lot of traditional VFX.
I still don’t think it’ll be cheaper, quicker or easier than getting a bunch of people who live locally to turn up at 5am for a couple of hundred bucks and free meals for a relatively easy gig.