I am however saying that regardless of the facts

That’s nice, have a good day!

Huh, TIL. The main point still stands that the soviet union actually made a lot of progress on human rights, even compared to imperialist countries with more accumulated capital.

Because immigrants are already biased due to having to leave, and they’re still generally normal about China.

I never made that argument though. Are you here to shadowbox or talk?

who told you not to trust the American government.

You don’t have to be told not to trust it. Even deluded Chuds who guzzle US corporate propaganda all day don’t trust it.

Further the meme implies one should trust the Chinese government presumably because an untrustworthy source told you not to which is a mentally stunted view.

No, the meme implies that your distrust isn’t justified, not that trust is justified.

Not being trapped under the direct influence of the Chinese government, there are clearly many of reasons not to trust that government either.

Okay, have you talked to any recent(as in the last 10 years) immigrants from China who don’t make way over the median US income? Or hell, earlier immigrants mostly only complain about the liberalization period under Deng.

There is no reason to trust any government. A basic understanding of history should make it clear that this is true of any government that has ever existed

This doesn’t really acknowledge the class character of the state.

Saying that they do propaganda and censorship as like a “you can’t trust them” justification is ridiculous though. Literally all states do those things, and non-state solutions don’t work, as has been repeatedly demonstrated.

True intellectualism is doing proper investigation before speaking. How many ordinary Chinese people have you talked to? Have you visited China?

The point is you’re making an unsourced claim which doesn’t align with the topic of conversation.

Could I trouble you for some citations?

they were often basic with communal kitchens and bathrooms

The horror, the horror. A building made a decade after a sixth of their population and most of their infrastructure was destroyed by a capitalist invasion and there was communal amenities. Also do you prefer to cook alone?

Remind me, what was the first European country to legalize abortion? Oh, after that, what was the second country to legalize abortion?

When did soviet women get the right to divorce their husbands?

What was the literacy rate before the soviet union? What was it after? Answer the same questions about women’s literacy.

What was the schooling rate before the soviet union? What was it after? Answer the same questions about women’s schooling.

What was the college graduation rate before the soviet union? What was it after? Answer the same questions about women’s college graduation.

What was the first European state to decriminalize homosexuality? How did the Stasi respond to gay civil rights protestors? What did Castro do upon learning that gay people were being mistreated in (alternative to conscription) labor camps? All of this decades before Lawrence V Texas. Hell, trans people got free transition care in Cuba before Lawrence V Texas. The socialist record on LGBT rights isn’t perfect but it is better than capitalist countries. I mean, hell, look at the way capitalist Germany treated lgbt people during the holocaust.

No, you said something that didn’t make sense.

I said

“Living in the US is sufficient cause to distrust its government.”

You replied:

“I can say the same for China”

I replied:

“Except you literally can’t.” Meaning you don’t live in China so you can’t make the claim with similar level of authority

And then you made the comment I replied to, and I don’t see at all how it is connected to the line of conversation.

Idk I like it when the proletariat is able to dictate the course of society

Also your reply contradicts your statement that I first replied to.

Except you literally can’t.

Who told you not to trust anything the US said?

Living in the US is sufficient cause to distrust its government.

Please enlighten me what the substantive difference between ‘industrial scale’ and ‘systematic and widespread’ is.

Literally the difference between the holocaust and a pogrom.

Similarly, please point out to me what your exact issue is with the report I linked.

A lack of institutional credibility and an unwillingness to read a 20 page report that references things that have already been debunked- for example, i took a vertical slice to dig into, looking in detail about their claims of abducted children that do not align with the reality of later western-biased reporting on the issue.

Also, citation needed that Zenz is a fascist. I found much criticism of him, but no credible allegation that he is a fascist.

He describes himself as a “Christian Nationalist” and “on a God given mission to destroy China” and his institute used to be a cia front (arguably still is, although it has now been obscured through another front organization) If he isn’t a fascist, he is close enough to the picture that he still isn’t credible.

At their heart, both capitalism and marxism are ideologies describing how things “ought to be.” Proponents of either of them seek to influence political decision making around economic decisions, but neither is/was/will be reality.

No, Marxism does not just describe things as they ought to be. It’s main aspects are:

Anthropological: a methodology for understanding how capitalism happens and how it changes to suit changing conditions (many of which it brings about)

Scientific: a process based ideology for developing an understanding of our local conditions and our ability to change them through sociological investigation, mediated through democratic process

The political program extends from an understanding of those two aspects, and is very variable, because the programs are applied to the local conditions of their environments.

Capitalism postulates that all capital ought to be privately owned and working in individual interest,

No, that strain of bourgeois thought died out as a ruling ideology hundreds of years ago, when state intervention in some failed ventures if the west indies trading company demonstrated that it is more profitable for capitalism to maintain a strong state to protect profits.

Communists dismiss this by pointing out that inequal access to capital causes internal problems in society,

I mean yeah but that’s not the main thing. The main thing that Marxists believe is that as capitalism moves into its monopoly stage, it ceases to be a historically progressive force (in opposition to feudalism) and it starts to be fettered by its own issues, just like feudalism was.

Marxists believe that as production becomes socialized and planned, capitalist control makes these socialized production processes inefficient and ultimately leads to a cycle of crises.

Continue, you only have several more claims that aren’t cited. For example, the use of language “industrial scale” for torture.

Also please keep in mind that this isn’t a high standard of evidence, as UN reports often are influenced- such as the significant citations of the German fascist Adrien Zenz in some of their reporting on China.

And the Olympic gold for comically missing the point by getting strangely defensive goes to…

I’ve found no UN reports detailing activities such as those on an industrial scale. Please cite the UN reports.