This is the dumbest take. Most crimes require an element of intent. Using the same bag you use to take shooting or hunting is not intent to smuggle weapons. The quantities of the items found demonstrate no ill intent.
Just because you personally disagree with the 100 million gun owners doesn’t make this a moderate take. Imprisoning people for years because of a loose round in luggage is moronic politically and a waste of tax money.
The casual implication here that a round of ammo in your luggage doesn’t imply you are an unsafe gun owner is insane. Lost rounds don’t just happen, they are a sign that the person didn’t account for all their ammo and secure it properly. There’s no reason to give these people a pass.
I didnt say it wasn’t irresponsible and I didnt say give them a pass. I said don’t give them years in prison for an honest harmless mistake. Maybe ban them from returning? Something less extreme…
I understand what words mean, thanks. I’m responding to the hordes of teenagers frothing at the mouth for severe punishment in these cases. There are 5 now.
Can’t you see? The dude is fighting for their life. He’s literally spearheading the defense of those poor american. He might also be the one who will change the law of another country. 😄🫡
5 cases is not very many, considering how long guns have been legal in this country and illegal in others. Doesn’t seem like a problem at all to me, just check your shit if you commonly carry murder implements around. 🤷♂️ Idk what else to tell you, these people didn’t even get punished.
Do you realize there are 5 cases already like this? Do you know why? Because this mistake is super common.
Do you realize that means this probably happened dozens of times a year before this recent change took effect? And that all those people in the past returned home with their ammo completely undetected by anyone, including themselves?
You know what something’s called when nobody even notices it happened?
You just completely switch the argument with a red herring.
It doesn’t matter whether that person is a safe gun owner or not here. And a lost round of ammunition is such an armchair take it makes me question if you should even have an opinion on the subject…
A round of ammunition in your bag should not equate to years of prison, end of story.
I had a box of .22 rounds in my backpack that I was bringing back from the gun store. Lo and behold it was loose, and some had unknowingly fell into my bag. I didn’t notice they were there for years until I did a deep clean of my backpack. No one counts throw-away ammunition.
Good to see that Lemmy is becoming as toxic A wasteland as Reddit ever was.
Armchairing ✅
Personal attacks instead of attacking the arguments ✅
Silent downvotes instead of actual discussion ✅
Misrepresenting an anecdote ✅
All I did was provide an anecdote to show how easy it is to lose a round of ammunition. No one is strictly inventorying their .22 ammunition, it literally comes in boxes of loose rounds. Holes in the corners easily cause some to be misplaced during transportation. It’s not common but it happens, and when it does you’re not going to know, because, again, no one is inventorying their loose rounds.
Despite me calling out the armchair opinion, you decide that doubling down on the armchairness was more appropriate, and used an anecdote as a way to personally attack me, instead of my argument.
You made no attempt to actually address the point I was making, and instead took the easy route which is just personal attacks…
Also a really fucking stupid take? It should always be based on the facts of the case, not the color of skin or gender. If a cute white woman is carrying guns and hundreds of rounds of ammo punish away.
Have you ever been to the range? How much ammo did you use? If you wanted to smuggle and sell ammo into another country for money, how much would you bring? Would you bring your wife and book a vacation stay?
Yea, but I don’t have solid evidence either way since I’m not on the ground there - what makes you so certain these people weren’t smugglers? What part of this story has you so willing to go to bat for them?
Then you should try reading the article. It describes 4 of the recent cases. In those cases people were not found with guns and had 2, 2, 4, and 20 rounds of ammo respectively.
Go to the gun range once and you’ll understand that’s not smuggling ammunition for criminal use. That’s an oopsie I forgot that was in that bag.
You see how it says “illegal” there? In smuggling cases there has to be this other thing called “intent” for it to have been illegal.
If a Mexican gets some codeine at a Mexican pharmacy, forgets it in their bag, and flies into the USA we don’t pay tax money to imprison them for years. We take it, ban them, and send them back.
Hagerich was one of several Americans facing a potential mandatory minimum sentence of 12 years in prison on ammunition charges in Turks and Caicos.
goes looking for the actual law
So, this appears to be the relevant section of the criminal code. I’m not sure how they got to 12 years. But there are different rules that take into account intent:
Here’s the one I believe is applicable with intent to injure, which has a ten year minimum:
Penalty for possessing firearms with intent to injure
Any person who has in his possession any firearm or ammunition with intent by means thereof to endanger life or cause injury to property, or to enable any other person by means thereof to endanger life or cause injury to property, whether any injury to person or property has been caused or not, commits an offence and is liable on conviction on indictment to a mandatory term of imprisonment of not less than ten years with a maximum term of imprisonment for life and a fine without limit. (Substituted by Ord. 28 of 2010 and Amended by Ord. 8 of 2018)
Here’s the one without intent to injure, just possession, which has a seven year minimum:
Firearm to be licensed
(1) No person (other than a licensed gunsmith in the course of his trade) shall keep, carry, discharge or use any firearm or ammunition unless he is the holder of a firearm licence with respect to such firearm, or in case of ammunition he is the holder of a licence for a firearm which takes that ammunition.
(2) No person licensed under subsection (1) shall keep a greater number of ammunition than is specified in his licence.
(3) A person who contravenes subsection (1) or (2) commits an offence and is liable on conviction on indictment to imprisonment for a term of not less than seven years but not exceeding fifteen years and a fine without limit. (Amended by Ords. 28 of 2010 and 8 of 2018)
I don’t think that the issue was that the legislators didn’t account for intent to cause harm.
That being said, I also do think that it’s plausible that the legislators were operating under the assumption that anyone in-country couldn’t have gotten ahold of any ammunition other than via going way out of their way to do it, whereas if someone’s flying in from where it’s everywhere, it’s a lot easier to inadvertently wind up with it.
I don’t think that the law is, in its present form, a good idea, though. I mean, even if you consider purely-domestic cases, there have to be cases where someone can accidentally wind up with ammunition. Okay, maybe we place an onus on international travelers to specially check their luggage. But, what happens if, I don’t know, some cop screws up and leaves a magazine somewhere? Someone doesn’t notice the thing, and bundles it up with some other stuff to a lost-and-found. That looks to be sufficient to violate the law as it stands, but I can’t imagine that it’s be reasonable for every person to inspect everything they’re picking up with a seven year minimum sentence at stake. The only person there who I think could reasonably have acted differently would have been the cop, but the law would punish random-lost-and-found guy.
Rofl. Ok, I’ll reply once to your walrusing, but this is it.
You applied US law standards to a foreign nation. Intent, commonality of gun ownership.
This is a foreign nation with their own very strict gun and drug laws. This is very common in 3rd world tourism based countries, particularly island countries. It’s to keep their country controlled and safe, which is essential for the tourism industry. And many of these countries have devastating drug cartel histories, though I don’t know this particular countries history with them.
But yeah, this is all about your gun rights to be careless with your firearms and ammunition, and your rights to travel to other countries and disrespect their laws.
I’m not going to spell out how this is all related to “accountability” because it’s abundantly obvious.
And your victimized take on my pulling your political affiliation is rich, given your words I was replying to:
Just because you personally disagree with the 100 million gun owners doesn’t make this a moderate take. Imprisoning people for years because of a loose round in luggage is moronic politically and a waste of tax money.
But I guess not wanting to be accountable for your own words tracks.
I have never said anything about gun rights in relation to this case at all. I was suggesting that the other posters extremist views stem not from applying reason but instead from their prejudiced political views against guns. Just like your posts can’t get around your prejudice about my political views.
Regarding the actually substantive part of your reply: I am not simply applying US law standards in my argument. Intent is a globally recognized legal standard that actually stems from British common law and applies in T+C law as well.
I agree with most of the rest of what you said here about why their laws exist, but the application of it to these tourists in a tourism focused economy is wrong. This is at the end of the day a customs issue. Imprisoning a vacationing grandmother for 2 loose rounds would be insanity.
In your previous post you offered nothing substantive at all. You literally searched my post history to see if I was a member of any groups against which you’re prejudiced so you could feel better about dismissing my arguments without actually addressing them. That’s pathetic.
And again as far as accountability goes, I never suggested they shouldn’t be held accountable. Only that the years long prison sentences are absurd given the facts.
You are wrong, that is not true at all. We confiscate the items, sometimes deny entry, and sometimes ban future entry. It happens all the time with pharmaceuticals, produce, and any number of other goods that are legal elsewhere but not here. Spending tax money to imprison people for years over minor cultural differences and misunderstandings is absolutely brain dead policy.
There are already 5 cases like this because this is a super common mistake and T+C recently implemented a change in their policy for handling it.
This is the dumbest take. Most crimes require an element of intent. Using the same bag you use to take shooting or hunting is not intent to smuggle weapons. The quantities of the items found demonstrate no ill intent.
Just because you personally disagree with the 100 million gun owners doesn’t make this a moderate take. Imprisoning people for years because of a loose round in luggage is moronic politically and a waste of tax money.
The casual implication here that a round of ammo in your luggage doesn’t imply you are an unsafe gun owner is insane. Lost rounds don’t just happen, they are a sign that the person didn’t account for all their ammo and secure it properly. There’s no reason to give these people a pass.
I didnt say it wasn’t irresponsible and I didnt say give them a pass. I said don’t give them years in prison for an honest harmless mistake. Maybe ban them from returning? Something less extreme…
They didn’t get years in prison, look up “suspended sentence”.
I understand what words mean, thanks. I’m responding to the hordes of teenagers frothing at the mouth for severe punishment in these cases. There are 5 now.
I wouldn’t call 5 teenagers “hordes,” but you do you.
Can’t you see? The dude is fighting for their life. He’s literally spearheading the defense of those poor american. He might also be the one who will change the law of another country. 😄🫡
5 legal cases so far. Hordes of people in this and similar threads trying to hang tourists from the nearest tree because they enjoy guns.
5 cases is not very many, considering how long guns have been legal in this country and illegal in others. Doesn’t seem like a problem at all to me, just check your shit if you commonly carry murder implements around. 🤷♂️ Idk what else to tell you, these people didn’t even get punished.
This change is like a month old in T+C. It’s 5 in a short period.
lol
Do you realize there are 5 cases already like this? Do you know why? Because this mistake is super common.
Do you realize that means this probably happened dozens of times a year before this recent change took effect? And that all those people in the past returned home with their ammo completely undetected by anyone, including themselves?
You know what something’s called when nobody even notices it happened?
Harmless. Absent of harm.
Maybe it’s common for Americans to be this lax with their weaponry?
I don’t see the citizens of other countries making the same “common” mistake.
You just completely switch the argument with a red herring.
It doesn’t matter whether that person is a safe gun owner or not here. And a lost round of ammunition is such an armchair take it makes me question if you should even have an opinion on the subject…
A round of ammunition in your bag should not equate to years of prison, end of story.
I had a box of .22 rounds in my backpack that I was bringing back from the gun store. Lo and behold it was loose, and some had unknowingly fell into my bag. I didn’t notice they were there for years until I did a deep clean of my backpack. No one counts throw-away ammunition.
“Responsible gun owner” right here, folks.
Good to see that Lemmy is becoming as toxic A wasteland as Reddit ever was.
All I did was provide an anecdote to show how easy it is to lose a round of ammunition. No one is strictly inventorying their .22 ammunition, it literally comes in boxes of loose rounds. Holes in the corners easily cause some to be misplaced during transportation. It’s not common but it happens, and when it does you’re not going to know, because, again, no one is inventorying their loose rounds.
Despite me calling out the armchair opinion, you decide that doubling down on the armchairness was more appropriate, and used an anecdote as a way to personally attack me, instead of my argument.
You made no attempt to actually address the point I was making, and instead took the easy route which is just personal attacks…
You can do better than that.
Smuggling is always the smugglers fault.
That he’s an irresponsible gun owner too is just the cherry on top.
You keep using that word. It isn’t smuggling, it is forgetting a round of ammo in a bag. Your view on this is extreme. There is nuance in the world…
And this is why drug cartels use cute white women as mules - to skate by on “It’s for personal use” excuses if they get caught.
Also a really fucking stupid take? It should always be based on the facts of the case, not the color of skin or gender. If a cute white woman is carrying guns and hundreds of rounds of ammo punish away.
Why are you so certain that the people in this case weren’t intentionally smuggling ammunition?
Because of the quantity and having a brain.
Then you’re naive.
Have you ever been to the range? How much ammo did you use? If you wanted to smuggle and sell ammo into another country for money, how much would you bring? Would you bring your wife and book a vacation stay?
Yea, but I don’t have solid evidence either way since I’m not on the ground there - what makes you so certain these people weren’t smugglers? What part of this story has you so willing to go to bat for them?
Then you should try reading the article. It describes 4 of the recent cases. In those cases people were not found with guns and had 2, 2, 4, and 20 rounds of ammo respectively.
Go to the gun range once and you’ll understand that’s not smuggling ammunition for criminal use. That’s an oopsie I forgot that was in that bag.
He packed his own contraband in his own bag and brought it to a foreign country.
That’s the definition of smuggling.
No, it isn’t.
The Oxford dictionary definition:
You see how it says “illegal” there? In smuggling cases there has to be this other thing called “intent” for it to have been illegal.
If a Mexican gets some codeine at a Mexican pharmacy, forgets it in their bag, and flies into the USA we don’t pay tax money to imprison them for years. We take it, ban them, and send them back.
Why? Because they are careless, not smugglers.
The law does not universally require “intent”, I might not intend to speed in my car or fuck a 17 year old, but if it happens I am still responsible.
You missed the part where I wrote “in smuggling cases”.
ETA: you also listed examples that do require intent… like omg I accidentally fucked a 17 year old.
Or omg my car just drove itself too fast.
What? Think then type.
But why would you ban them, if they didn’t do anything illegal?
You basically confirm that it is illegal. Now it’s just about the punishment.
Try getting busted entering the US with half a gram of weed stuck in some fold of your bag, and see how they treat you.
Try that in Singapore or Iran.
The only thing that would happen is confiscation and denied entry.
And what is your point? That imprisoning those people for 4 years is good and fair policy and other countries should do it too?
goes looking for the actual law
So, this appears to be the relevant section of the criminal code. I’m not sure how they got to 12 years. But there are different rules that take into account intent:
https://gov.tc/agc/component/edocman/18-09-firearms-ordinance-2/viewdocument/1232?Itemid=
Here’s the one I believe is applicable with intent to injure, which has a ten year minimum:
Here’s the one without intent to injure, just possession, which has a seven year minimum:
I don’t think that the issue was that the legislators didn’t account for intent to cause harm.
That being said, I also do think that it’s plausible that the legislators were operating under the assumption that anyone in-country couldn’t have gotten ahold of any ammunition other than via going way out of their way to do it, whereas if someone’s flying in from where it’s everywhere, it’s a lot easier to inadvertently wind up with it.
I don’t think that the law is, in its present form, a good idea, though. I mean, even if you consider purely-domestic cases, there have to be cases where someone can accidentally wind up with ammunition. Okay, maybe we place an onus on international travelers to specially check their luggage. But, what happens if, I don’t know, some cop screws up and leaves a magazine somewhere? Someone doesn’t notice the thing, and bundles it up with some other stuff to a lost-and-found. That looks to be sufficient to violate the law as it stands, but I can’t imagine that it’s be reasonable for every person to inspect everything they’re picking up with a seven year minimum sentence at stake. The only person there who I think could reasonably have acted differently would have been the cop, but the law would punish random-lost-and-found guy.
Thank you for your reply and maintaining my faith that intelligent life still posts on Lemmy.
Ahh yes, the “how dare they hold him accountable for his own actions” take.
Imagine my surprise when I quickly found you self identify as a libertarian.
Shocking.
Show me where I said that they shouldn’t hold him accountable? Or the others, including the grandma?
But yeah sure make it about political beliefs instead of facts.
Rofl. Ok, I’ll reply once to your walrusing, but this is it.
You applied US law standards to a foreign nation. Intent, commonality of gun ownership.
This is a foreign nation with their own very strict gun and drug laws. This is very common in 3rd world tourism based countries, particularly island countries. It’s to keep their country controlled and safe, which is essential for the tourism industry. And many of these countries have devastating drug cartel histories, though I don’t know this particular countries history with them.
But yeah, this is all about your gun rights to be careless with your firearms and ammunition, and your rights to travel to other countries and disrespect their laws.
I’m not going to spell out how this is all related to “accountability” because it’s abundantly obvious.
And your victimized take on my pulling your political affiliation is rich, given your words I was replying to:
But I guess not wanting to be accountable for your own words tracks.
I have never said anything about gun rights in relation to this case at all. I was suggesting that the other posters extremist views stem not from applying reason but instead from their prejudiced political views against guns. Just like your posts can’t get around your prejudice about my political views.
Regarding the actually substantive part of your reply: I am not simply applying US law standards in my argument. Intent is a globally recognized legal standard that actually stems from British common law and applies in T+C law as well.
I agree with most of the rest of what you said here about why their laws exist, but the application of it to these tourists in a tourism focused economy is wrong. This is at the end of the day a customs issue. Imprisoning a vacationing grandmother for 2 loose rounds would be insanity.
In your previous post you offered nothing substantive at all. You literally searched my post history to see if I was a member of any groups against which you’re prejudiced so you could feel better about dismissing my arguments without actually addressing them. That’s pathetic.
And again as far as accountability goes, I never suggested they shouldn’t be held accountable. Only that the years long prison sentences are absurd given the facts.
If this happened in the States, they would be imprisoned as well. No country is going to let that shit slide, champ.
You are wrong, that is not true at all. We confiscate the items, sometimes deny entry, and sometimes ban future entry. It happens all the time with pharmaceuticals, produce, and any number of other goods that are legal elsewhere but not here. Spending tax money to imprison people for years over minor cultural differences and misunderstandings is absolutely brain dead policy.
There are already 5 cases like this because this is a super common mistake and T+C recently implemented a change in their policy for handling it.
Bring a little cannabis to Texas and see how they feel about your cultural misunderstanding.
If you’re from elsewhere it will go as I said.
deleted by creator
52 months is 4 1/4 years.