How many people, realistically, would vote for a white male Democrat but NOT a non-white female?
Far too many. It doesn’t mean they’re going to admit, even to themselves, that the reason they’re making that choice is that they hate women. But, unconscious bias is a helluva thing.
Would you rather appease them and win, or not appease them and lose?
Sacrificing your values to win is no true victory.
Here’s the way I see it:
If you’re right and there are too many closet racists/sexists for a black woman to win, and we run her anyway, then we lose. If we don’t run her in order to appease the racists and we “win” we’ve actually still lost because we sacrificed a core value. That sacrifice will haunt the Democrats as the decay that was already happening will accelerate.
It’s the same cowardice that has plagued the Democrats for decades. Choosing appeasement for political convenience over and over, each time removing a section of their spines until there’s none of it left. Do not let fear control you.
Sacrificing your values to win is no true victory.
Holding on to your values without compromise and losing is no true victory either. In fact, it’s true defeat.
Is a tainted victory better than a complete loss? I’d argue it is, especially in this case where a loss might mean permanent damage to the institutions of the country by a fascist.
Maybe you’d prefer to hold your head up high while you’re being trucked off to a re-education camp. I just don’t want re-education camps to exist.
Appeasing them is dangerous. I see this line of thinking a lot, but it has never led the dems to victory and it has repeatedly compromised our own values and degraded trust in the party. We cannot and should not cater to the worst people in the room at the expense of our own morals. It is wrong, but it is also a losing strategy.
Right… We become beholden to the laggards of social progress because we think we can’t win without them, and we alienate and stagnate the progress of those doing the most.
Appeasing them could be dangerous depending on how it’s done, and to what extent. But, what if the appeasement is merely choosing a man for her VP? Maybe that’s all it will take.
We cannot and should not cater to the worst people in the room
The worst people in the room are voting for Trump. This is catering to people in the room who are on the fence and might need a nudge. You can stick to your principles and ignore them, or you can consider their opinions. Ignoring them might mean losing the presidential race. And if you lose, then the purity of your agenda and message is meaningless because the other side wins. And, in this election, the other side winning might mean permanent damage to the whole democratic process.
I think you skipped part of the argument. I’m sure those people exist, but what about the number of disengaged voters who were over Joe Biden or disagreed with him on various issues? I think the number of votes lost because of race or gender is not 0, but the gains through reinvigoration are far, far higher.
I think the number of votes lost because of race or gender is not 0, but the gains through reinvigoration are far, far higher.
We don’t know, that’s what makes this scary. I’m more pessimistic. IMO the whole reason Trump got elected in the first place was backlash over the first black president. I think the US is a lot more sexist and racist than people want to admit. Even people who don’t think they’re racist or sexist will still show huge cognitive biases in an unconscious bias test. So, they’re not going to say “I’m not voting for Kamala because she’s a non-white woman”, they’ll say “I’m not voting for her because she’s underqualified” or “I don’t like her record as a prosecutor” or “she doesn’t seem like someone I’d want to have a beer with”.
I see your points here. I don’t think they are wrong, but I have a different opinion on Trump’s election.
I think the onset of social media created a real shit storm of misinformation particularly during the Obama years. I don’t think it was backlash because he was black (though I admit this is not knowable, just my opinion), but more because of the overall grievance with how things operate.
You can’t really separate race out of the equation, because I think Democrats had good messaging showing the effects of institutional racism and sexism against minority groups, particularly at a systemic level. However, there was a massive concentration of wealth in America at the same time.
Trumo came along and his message wasn’t really that novel. He just said hey, this shit sucks for everyone, not just minorities. White people are getting screwed too. And I’m the guy that’s going to fight for the rural voter.
I take your point that it’s not outright racism. It’s not someone saying I’m not voting for this person solely because they are X, it’s some end around way of going about it. But I think Trump played the White Greivance card and I think Democrats are getting a little better at leaning into it. The unfortunate truth is that both things are totally true. White people are getting screwed (concentration of wealth to hover levels) AND minorities groups are getting screwed (because of systematic racist effects that are still residual in daily life for them).
As I’m talking this out, I’m not sure where to land. There’s multiple pieces here that intersect with race, but I’m not sure they are the core tenant. I think there might be some voters who realize that everyone is getting screwed, but maybe worry that Harris would prioritize racial issues before overall everyone getting boned issues. Maybe that’s the group?
Didn’t come to a great conclusion, but your comment had some layers to it so it got me thinking.
but more because of the overall grievance with how things operate.
I think this was the excuse, but the real reason was that Obama was black.
[Trump] came along and his message wasn’t really that novel. He just said hey, this shit sucks for everyone, not just minorities. White people are getting screwed too. And I’m the guy that’s going to fight for the rural voter.
Trump came along and said “show us your birth certificate!” He was the original birther, which was clearly a racist conspiracy theory.
“I want him to show his birth certificate. There is something on that birth certificate that he doesn’t like,” he said in an appearance on ABC’s “The View.” On “Fox & Friends,” Trump insisted Obama spent “millions of dollars in legal fees trying to get away from this issue,” and floated the idea on Bill O’Reilly’s show that the certificate could say the president is a Muslim.
This is 2011. This was 5 years before he became president. He wasn’t even running for president yet. He didn’t run in the 2012 presidential election. His main focus was questioning whether Obama was actually American, and whether he was a secret muslim. In other words, he was already the focal point for all the racists in the country who hated having a black president.
The funny thing is, although Trump is clearly a racist, and has been a racist all his life (see the Central Park 5 stuff as one tiny example), IMO he really threw his energy into the project because he was upset at Obama making fun of him at the White House correspondents dinner. Of course, that’s also tied in with racism. It’s not just that someone made fun of him, it’s that a black man made fun of him.
Sure, by the time he actually officially started running for president in 2015, he had a list of other grievances, and they weren’t all overtly racist. But, his entry into national politics in 2011 was essentially focused on racism against Obama. That’s where people first started noticing him.
Far too many. It doesn’t mean they’re going to admit, even to themselves, that the reason they’re making that choice is that they hate women. But, unconscious bias is a helluva thing.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/features/hidden-sexism/
Would you rather appease them and win, or not appease them and lose?
Sacrificing your values to win is no true victory.
Here’s the way I see it:
If you’re right and there are too many closet racists/sexists for a black woman to win, and we run her anyway, then we lose. If we don’t run her in order to appease the racists and we “win” we’ve actually still lost because we sacrificed a core value. That sacrifice will haunt the Democrats as the decay that was already happening will accelerate.
It’s the same cowardice that has plagued the Democrats for decades. Choosing appeasement for political convenience over and over, each time removing a section of their spines until there’s none of it left. Do not let fear control you.
Holding on to your values without compromise and losing is no true victory either. In fact, it’s true defeat.
Is a tainted victory better than a complete loss? I’d argue it is, especially in this case where a loss might mean permanent damage to the institutions of the country by a fascist.
Maybe you’d prefer to hold your head up high while you’re being trucked off to a re-education camp. I just don’t want re-education camps to exist.
Appeasing them is dangerous. I see this line of thinking a lot, but it has never led the dems to victory and it has repeatedly compromised our own values and degraded trust in the party. We cannot and should not cater to the worst people in the room at the expense of our own morals. It is wrong, but it is also a losing strategy.
Right… We become beholden to the laggards of social progress because we think we can’t win without them, and we alienate and stagnate the progress of those doing the most.
Appeasing them could be dangerous depending on how it’s done, and to what extent. But, what if the appeasement is merely choosing a man for her VP? Maybe that’s all it will take.
The worst people in the room are voting for Trump. This is catering to people in the room who are on the fence and might need a nudge. You can stick to your principles and ignore them, or you can consider their opinions. Ignoring them might mean losing the presidential race. And if you lose, then the purity of your agenda and message is meaningless because the other side wins. And, in this election, the other side winning might mean permanent damage to the whole democratic process.
I think you skipped part of the argument. I’m sure those people exist, but what about the number of disengaged voters who were over Joe Biden or disagreed with him on various issues? I think the number of votes lost because of race or gender is not 0, but the gains through reinvigoration are far, far higher.
We don’t know, that’s what makes this scary. I’m more pessimistic. IMO the whole reason Trump got elected in the first place was backlash over the first black president. I think the US is a lot more sexist and racist than people want to admit. Even people who don’t think they’re racist or sexist will still show huge cognitive biases in an unconscious bias test. So, they’re not going to say “I’m not voting for Kamala because she’s a non-white woman”, they’ll say “I’m not voting for her because she’s underqualified” or “I don’t like her record as a prosecutor” or “she doesn’t seem like someone I’d want to have a beer with”.
I see your points here. I don’t think they are wrong, but I have a different opinion on Trump’s election.
I think the onset of social media created a real shit storm of misinformation particularly during the Obama years. I don’t think it was backlash because he was black (though I admit this is not knowable, just my opinion), but more because of the overall grievance with how things operate.
You can’t really separate race out of the equation, because I think Democrats had good messaging showing the effects of institutional racism and sexism against minority groups, particularly at a systemic level. However, there was a massive concentration of wealth in America at the same time.
Trumo came along and his message wasn’t really that novel. He just said hey, this shit sucks for everyone, not just minorities. White people are getting screwed too. And I’m the guy that’s going to fight for the rural voter.
I take your point that it’s not outright racism. It’s not someone saying I’m not voting for this person solely because they are X, it’s some end around way of going about it. But I think Trump played the White Greivance card and I think Democrats are getting a little better at leaning into it. The unfortunate truth is that both things are totally true. White people are getting screwed (concentration of wealth to hover levels) AND minorities groups are getting screwed (because of systematic racist effects that are still residual in daily life for them).
As I’m talking this out, I’m not sure where to land. There’s multiple pieces here that intersect with race, but I’m not sure they are the core tenant. I think there might be some voters who realize that everyone is getting screwed, but maybe worry that Harris would prioritize racial issues before overall everyone getting boned issues. Maybe that’s the group?
Didn’t come to a great conclusion, but your comment had some layers to it so it got me thinking.
I think this was the excuse, but the real reason was that Obama was black.
Trump came along and said “show us your birth certificate!” He was the original birther, which was clearly a racist conspiracy theory.
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/donald-trump-perpetuated-birther-movement-years/story?id=42138176
This is 2011. This was 5 years before he became president. He wasn’t even running for president yet. He didn’t run in the 2012 presidential election. His main focus was questioning whether Obama was actually American, and whether he was a secret muslim. In other words, he was already the focal point for all the racists in the country who hated having a black president.
The funny thing is, although Trump is clearly a racist, and has been a racist all his life (see the Central Park 5 stuff as one tiny example), IMO he really threw his energy into the project because he was upset at Obama making fun of him at the White House correspondents dinner. Of course, that’s also tied in with racism. It’s not just that someone made fun of him, it’s that a black man made fun of him.
Sure, by the time he actually officially started running for president in 2015, he had a list of other grievances, and they weren’t all overtly racist. But, his entry into national politics in 2011 was essentially focused on racism against Obama. That’s where people first started noticing him.
These are great points. I’ll have to think on this a bit further - thanks for the info!