Because if you start justifying these kinds of things, they will eventually be turned against you and next you know it, your own political representative is being shot at because their opponent’s supporters are feeling threatened just as you are (whether they are truly justified in feeling threatened or not, doesn’t matter).
Democracy does not work with violence.
EDIT: I’m really curious about the downvoters: do you really think murdering your political opponents is justified? The goal is to vote out the fascists, not become fascists.
Because if you start justifying these kinds of things…
Republicans have already been justifying it. It was only days ago that a Republican said [paraphrasing] “theres a revolution already going on and it will be bloodless if the left doesnt interfere”.
Republicans have already been justifying the death of BIPoC, trans kids, the queer community, Palestinians and anyone who opposes their genocide… the list goes on. And its mealy mouthed liberals that always say shit like “oh but we shouldn’t start justifying using violence, even in defence” from their positions of privilege.
WTF do you think is going to happen after November, whether Trump wins or not? They have been laying out the justification for using violence for 4 fucking years and you’ve slept through it, hoping its just some nightmare you’ll wake up from.
Democracy does not work with violence.
How do you think your form of ‘democracy’ was achieved? You ballot box is awash with so much fucking blood that you would piss your pants if you had a tiny inkling. And most of it is from those who your country mercilessly crushed for you to have it. You dont live in a democracy. You live in a military/prison/pharma industrial corporatist state that masquerades in a trenchcoat as a democratic Republic
I’m not sure what you’re saying - since they are justifying violence, you should too? That doesn’t seem sustainable, unless your goal is a civil war.
EDIT for your edit: I am not from the US so I’m not sleeping through anything, I’m just watching from the sidelines. My form of democracy was actually introduced quite peacefully, all things considered. But that’s neither here nor there.
Any bloodless revolution is done through an implicit threat of violence. It is just the losing side being smart about how they lose.
I tillegg om du er dansk, vil eg påpeike at Danmark mista eineveldet sitt då dei tapte Napoleonskrigane i 1814, som også var grunnlaget for Noreg sin uavhengigheit og demokratiske grunnlov.
Let’s say you’re in school, and you’re assigned a lab partner and told the requirements of your project and that you need to compromise both individual’s ideas to make it happen.
Every time you try to make a suggestion, they immediately say no and suggest something that isn’t even graded for the project, and refuses to budge until you compromise. When you don’t compromise, they threaten to tell the teacher that you’re not compromising. As you try to hold your ground trying to get a good grade for both of you, they just keep doing whatever they want and making more threats to you: they’ll take your lunch money, they’ll beat you up after school, they’ll pop your bike tires, etc.
When you tell the teacher, they tell you to stop overreacting and you need to learn to work with others. After school, your science partner punches you and says you better agree to XYZ tomorrow. You tell the teacher they hit you, and you’re told you need to stop exaggerating and learn to compromise and work together. Every day that week, your science partner makes good on each threat after school, and every day you tell your teacher, they tell you to stop exaggerating and learn to play nice.
On the last day, you punch the kid back, really hit him, break his nose kind of punch. And you’re punished: the teacher says you shouldn’t have resorted to violence, your partner says they were the true victim in the project arrangement, you get a failing grade because everything you compromised on didn’t meet the requirements, but your science partner still got an A and wasn’t punished for anything he did all week because “the rules don’t apply to them the same way, they’re troubled/have a lot going on at home/whatever excuse.”
That’s the current state of US politics: Republicans are justified in any and everything they do because they’re “special,” but Democrats have to follow all of the rules, all of the time, even when the other side of the aisle refuses to even listen to them or the centuries/decades of legal precedent. And they, the Republicans, still win because that’s just how the fucking system works.
Anyone that’s said it was a set up has been countered with arguments that to just nick someone ear is statistically impossible but they all treat it that trump is the brains behind the operation.
Now we all know that generally, he’s as dumb as a bag of hammers and has cognitive issues (seems to be a second election based on old men with melting brains) so the real power lies behind the throne.
They might have taken the decision to set up a patsy & if he succeeds, ride the sympathy & somehow load all the blame onto Biden. If he doesn’t, as we’re seeing, trump rides the sympathy wave into the white house.
Another possible theory is that the kid appeared in a black rock commercial a few years ago and as BR have the contract to rebuild in Ukraine, that would be under threat if trump wins (he will pretty much throw them under the bus & let the reaction be his reason to split NATO). BRs main guys brother is Bidens right hand man. Similar to Haliburton with Iraq & it’s former CEO being Bush jnrs VP.
To see such massive laxes in Trumps security and people pointing out the shooter to police at least 3 minutes before he fired, raises more questions and leaves it wide open to wild theories.
One thing for definite though: Biden will absolutely lose the election now.
I don’t think that’s true. Obviously you need elections that can be trusted (and despite everything I don’t think elections results are being tampered with too significantly) but if there are bad faith actors (like Trump) then just… Get people not to vote for such an actor. Should be easy enough seeing as they’re a bad faith actor right?
Well no, because people are poorly educated or brainwashed or scared or bigoted or hateful or afraid or all the other reasons that people in the US might vote for Trump. The problem is not Trump, the problem is the people voting for him. That’s also why shooting him is a bad idea, it only entrenches his supporters even further (aside from the fact that shooting anyone is generally a bad idea).
Democracy requires nonviolence and an educated and informed population. The US fails on both accounts.
Our “democracy” IS violent, it just isn’t the ruling class experiencing the violence. Every day our society is upheld by violence. Violence over seas (231 years of war, support of genocide, coups, and interventions) and violence at home in the form of an increasingly more powerful police state.
This is just the direct forms of oppression like guns, bombs and jackbooted thugs. There are also sanctions that starve people and IMF loans that impoverish people. These all uphold our standards of living, the united states cannot exist with the impoverishment and exploitation of others.
Political violence ≠ fascism. Violence is what people turn to when they can’t achieve what they need by merely talking and voting. Cf. every revolution, ever. Including the American one.
Violence is what people turn to when they can’t achieve what they need by merely talking and voting.
The fact that this is the state of things is the bigger problem. That’s the problem that needs to be fixed and sorry, but violence is not the solution to that, it only makes things even worse.
Lol that minimizes what fascism actually is. Assassinations have happened throughout history, including before Capitalism and before the crisis within Capitalism that created fascism.
That “lol” is quite unnecessary. There is no need to ridicule me. I would expect better from a mod of a community like this.
minimizes what fascism actually is
I didn’t say that is all fascism is, just that it is a tactic within fascism. It can be a part of it. But anyway I don’t want to argue what is and isn’t fascism, my point is just that political violence and murdering your political opponents does not work with democracy and shouldn’t ever be hoped for or wanted, even if it is your political opponent being targeted. I want Trump gone as much as the next guy on the fediverse but I don’t want him killed.
That “lol” is quite unnecessary. There is no need to ridicule me. I would expect better from a mod of a community like this.
I dont need to, but I felt like it. I chose restraint and went with “lol” instead of really getting into how ridiculous and chauvinist of an opinion it is.
I didn’t say that is all fascism is, just that it is a tactic within fascism
You said this: “Murdering your political opponents is a fascist tactic.”
my point is just that political violence and murdering your political opponents does not work with democracy
I mean the Soviets murdered the hell out of nazis, so there is a counterexample for you. The cubans also murdered the hell out of high level regime collaborators when batista was overthrown. Another counterexample. I’m not advocating for murder within our political system but like, you’re not correct.
How you could hate him? I understand. I have a nonbinary kid, and I’m against what he stands for. But advocating for political assassination is just wrong. We don’t punish people for crimes they haven’t yet committed, and we don’t support vigilantism.
We need to vote out fascist Republicans, not kill them.
I’m not sure it’s possible to get a full picture of everything Trump did wrong, even if you narrow it down to specific topics like LGBT rights. A lot of these things aren’t crimes, but that’s only because he was the one writing the laws and policies.
And the solution to this problem is to murder him? That is not how democracy works. Besides, the problem is not Trump per se, but the people voting for him. That won’t change just because Trump is dead. They will find some other bigoted candidate that will be just as bad if not worse.
People need to be educated and informed and know why it’s a bad idea to vote for someone like Trump - that is the only sustainable way to fix things if you ask me. Murder and violence will only entrench people further on either side and drive people to even more extremes.
I honestly understand all that, and believe it’s vitally important that he’s defeated. But assassinating political rivals is literally a characteristic of fascism.
It literally isnt: fascism is capitalism in crisis and assassinations have gone on for most of human history, before the development of capitalism in the first place
It is sad to see this state of the divide in the US. Even if you are against Trump, you’re not against him enough unless you want him dead. If you don’t want him dead, you must be a troll. What a sad state this debate has reached.
Yea honestly I usually just avoid these kind of threads because any debate just seems pointless when it comes to US politics. I’m just glad I don’t live there but it scares me how much their politics matter for the rest of the world when it is such a shit show.
The other man already does, for two years, things that made hundreds of thousands people die, get wounded, suffer, etc.
You are asking how people do not understand that you want Trump to be dead because he might hurt people you love, surely with your empathy skills you will be able to understand how people might hate Biden (and perhaps even want to see him dead as well) for what he did (and continues doing)?
Or is it only sad when the people you love are suffering? The other people do matter, right?
This man wants to do things that will make me and many people i love dead or suffering.
I keep seeing this repeated. What stopped him his first term and where are the corpses of the dead he is responsible for? Legitimately, link me to shit.
Likewise, if his side really were going for an overthrow of the government with the invasion of the senate building, why were there not more instances of gun violence? The republicans are more likely to own guns right? If they really wanted to overthrow shit, why didn’t they come strapped? If they came strapped, why was the only police death from a thrown fire extinguisher causing a brain bleed that killed the victim later that night?
There’s shit that doesn’t add up all over the place, and it bothers me that no one discusses it because they seem afraid to touch anything that might challenge the narrative of Trump’s terribleness and Biden needing to be infallible to win. Trump is more than reprehensible enough without hyperbole.
Not his first term but Trump seems ready to let Israel really take its gloves off and probably let the war expand into Lebanon and maybe Iran. Biden hasn’t really done shit but at least Israel seems somewhat afraid he might pull funding enough not to expand the war too much, trump will probably just give them a blank cheque.
If they really wanted to overthrow shit, why didn’t they come strapped?
Multiple people had firearms at the 1/6 coup attempt, this is well documented. I’m not sure why they never shot anyone, but it wasn’t for lack of firearms.
This man wants to do things that will make me and many people i love dead or suffering. How do you not understand how we could feel this way?
Because if you start justifying these kinds of things, they will eventually be turned against you and next you know it, your own political representative is being shot at because their opponent’s supporters are feeling threatened just as you are (whether they are truly justified in feeling threatened or not, doesn’t matter).
Democracy does not work with violence.
EDIT: I’m really curious about the downvoters: do you really think murdering your political opponents is justified? The goal is to vote out the fascists, not become fascists.
Republicans have already been justifying it. It was only days ago that a Republican said [paraphrasing] “theres a revolution already going on and it will be bloodless if the left doesnt interfere”.
Republicans have already been justifying the death of BIPoC, trans kids, the queer community, Palestinians and anyone who opposes their genocide… the list goes on. And its mealy mouthed liberals that always say shit like “oh but we shouldn’t start justifying using violence, even in defence” from their positions of privilege.
WTF do you think is going to happen after November, whether Trump wins or not? They have been laying out the justification for using violence for 4 fucking years and you’ve slept through it, hoping its just some nightmare you’ll wake up from.
How do you think your form of ‘democracy’ was achieved? You ballot box is awash with so much fucking blood that you would piss your pants if you had a tiny inkling. And most of it is from those who your country mercilessly crushed for you to have it. You dont live in a democracy. You live in a military/prison/pharma industrial corporatist state that masquerades in a trenchcoat as a democratic Republic
I’m not sure what you’re saying - since they are justifying violence, you should too? That doesn’t seem sustainable, unless your goal is a civil war.
EDIT for your edit: I am not from the US so I’m not sleeping through anything, I’m just watching from the sidelines. My form of democracy was actually introduced quite peacefully, all things considered. But that’s neither here nor there.
Any bloodless revolution is done through an implicit threat of violence. It is just the losing side being smart about how they lose.
I tillegg om du er dansk, vil eg påpeike at Danmark mista eineveldet sitt då dei tapte Napoleonskrigane i 1814, som også var grunnlaget for Noreg sin uavhengigheit og demokratiske grunnlov.
Let’s say you’re in school, and you’re assigned a lab partner and told the requirements of your project and that you need to compromise both individual’s ideas to make it happen.
Every time you try to make a suggestion, they immediately say no and suggest something that isn’t even graded for the project, and refuses to budge until you compromise. When you don’t compromise, they threaten to tell the teacher that you’re not compromising. As you try to hold your ground trying to get a good grade for both of you, they just keep doing whatever they want and making more threats to you: they’ll take your lunch money, they’ll beat you up after school, they’ll pop your bike tires, etc.
When you tell the teacher, they tell you to stop overreacting and you need to learn to work with others. After school, your science partner punches you and says you better agree to XYZ tomorrow. You tell the teacher they hit you, and you’re told you need to stop exaggerating and learn to compromise and work together. Every day that week, your science partner makes good on each threat after school, and every day you tell your teacher, they tell you to stop exaggerating and learn to play nice.
On the last day, you punch the kid back, really hit him, break his nose kind of punch. And you’re punished: the teacher says you shouldn’t have resorted to violence, your partner says they were the true victim in the project arrangement, you get a failing grade because everything you compromised on didn’t meet the requirements, but your science partner still got an A and wasn’t punished for anything he did all week because “the rules don’t apply to them the same way, they’re troubled/have a lot going on at home/whatever excuse.”
That’s the current state of US politics: Republicans are justified in any and everything they do because they’re “special,” but Democrats have to follow all of the rules, all of the time, even when the other side of the aisle refuses to even listen to them or the centuries/decades of legal precedent. And they, the Republicans, still win because that’s just how the fucking system works.
Dude, who are the ones actually shooting at people? You so worried about what might happen that you can’t see what’s going on right in front of you.
The guy doing the shooting was a registered republican.
Yeah that’s an interesting development. I have more questions now than I did before.
Anyone that’s said it was a set up has been countered with arguments that to just nick someone ear is statistically impossible but they all treat it that trump is the brains behind the operation.
Now we all know that generally, he’s as dumb as a bag of hammers and has cognitive issues (seems to be a second election based on old men with melting brains) so the real power lies behind the throne.
They might have taken the decision to set up a patsy & if he succeeds, ride the sympathy & somehow load all the blame onto Biden. If he doesn’t, as we’re seeing, trump rides the sympathy wave into the white house.
Another possible theory is that the kid appeared in a black rock commercial a few years ago and as BR have the contract to rebuild in Ukraine, that would be under threat if trump wins (he will pretty much throw them under the bus & let the reaction be his reason to split NATO). BRs main guys brother is Bidens right hand man. Similar to Haliburton with Iraq & it’s former CEO being Bush jnrs VP.
To see such massive laxes in Trumps security and people pointing out the shooter to police at least 3 minutes before he fired, raises more questions and leaves it wide open to wild theories.
One thing for definite though: Biden will absolutely lose the election now.
It doesn’t work if all parties aren’t participating in good faith, either. What then?
I don’t think that’s true. Obviously you need elections that can be trusted (and despite everything I don’t think elections results are being tampered with too significantly) but if there are bad faith actors (like Trump) then just… Get people not to vote for such an actor. Should be easy enough seeing as they’re a bad faith actor right?
Well no, because people are poorly educated or brainwashed or scared or bigoted or hateful or afraid or all the other reasons that people in the US might vote for Trump. The problem is not Trump, the problem is the people voting for him. That’s also why shooting him is a bad idea, it only entrenches his supporters even further (aside from the fact that shooting anyone is generally a bad idea).
Democracy requires nonviolence and an educated and informed population. The US fails on both accounts.
HAHAHAHA oh damn my dude go and read any history book.
Our “democracy” IS violent, it just isn’t the ruling class experiencing the violence. Every day our society is upheld by violence. Violence over seas (231 years of war, support of genocide, coups, and interventions) and violence at home in the form of an increasingly more powerful police state.
This is just the direct forms of oppression like guns, bombs and jackbooted thugs. There are also sanctions that starve people and IMF loans that impoverish people. These all uphold our standards of living, the united states cannot exist with the impoverishment and exploitation of others.
Political violence ≠ fascism. Violence is what people turn to when they can’t achieve what they need by merely talking and voting. Cf. every revolution, ever. Including the American one.
The fact that this is the state of things is the bigger problem. That’s the problem that needs to be fixed and sorry, but violence is not the solution to that, it only makes things even worse.
Killing fascists makes you a fascist?
Murdering your political opponents is a fascist tactic.
Lol that minimizes what fascism actually is. Assassinations have happened throughout history, including before Capitalism and before the crisis within Capitalism that created fascism.
That “lol” is quite unnecessary. There is no need to ridicule me. I would expect better from a mod of a community like this.
I didn’t say that is all fascism is, just that it is a tactic within fascism. It can be a part of it. But anyway I don’t want to argue what is and isn’t fascism, my point is just that political violence and murdering your political opponents does not work with democracy and shouldn’t ever be hoped for or wanted, even if it is your political opponent being targeted. I want Trump gone as much as the next guy on the fediverse but I don’t want him killed.
I dont need to, but I felt like it. I chose restraint and went with “lol” instead of really getting into how ridiculous and chauvinist of an opinion it is.
You said this: “Murdering your political opponents is a fascist tactic.”
I mean the Soviets murdered the hell out of nazis, so there is a counterexample for you. The cubans also murdered the hell out of high level regime collaborators when batista was overthrown. Another counterexample. I’m not advocating for murder within our political system but like, you’re not correct.
Lol
I dont think you know what fascism means
How you could hate him? I understand. I have a nonbinary kid, and I’m against what he stands for. But advocating for political assassination is just wrong. We don’t punish people for crimes they haven’t yet committed, and we don’t support vigilantism.
We need to vote out fascist Republicans, not kill them.
You know Trump was already president once, right? It’s not like it’s a secret that he’s anti-LGBTQ people.
We Made A List Of All The Anti-LGBT Stuff Trump Has Done As President from 2018, it includes
Saying it’s legal to fire workers for being transgender.
Arguing that it’s legal to fire workers for being gay.
Making transgender female prisoners live with male prisoners.
Telling the Supreme Court that shopkeepers can turn away LGBT customers.
Withdrawing protections for transgender students.
Refusing to investigate anti-transgender discrimination complaints in public schools.
Trying to kick transgender people out of the military.
Issuing a religious liberty policy.
Starting to rescind protections for transgender patients.
and their list goes on.
The Trump administration on Friday finalized a rule that would remove nondiscrimination protections for LGBTQ people when it comes to health care and health insurance from 2020
A controversial new rule that could allow homeless shelters to turn away transgender people based on physical appearance is the Trump administration’s latest attempt at restricting trans rights. also from 2020
I’m not sure it’s possible to get a full picture of everything Trump did wrong, even if you narrow it down to specific topics like LGBT rights. A lot of these things aren’t crimes, but that’s only because he was the one writing the laws and policies.
And the solution to this problem is to murder him? That is not how democracy works. Besides, the problem is not Trump per se, but the people voting for him. That won’t change just because Trump is dead. They will find some other bigoted candidate that will be just as bad if not worse.
People need to be educated and informed and know why it’s a bad idea to vote for someone like Trump - that is the only sustainable way to fix things if you ask me. Murder and violence will only entrench people further on either side and drive people to even more extremes.
I honestly understand all that, and believe it’s vitally important that he’s defeated. But assassinating political rivals is literally a characteristic of fascism.
It literally isnt: fascism is capitalism in crisis and assassinations have gone on for most of human history, before the development of capitalism in the first place
Ah ok trolling. Nevermind. Move along.
Trolling?
It is sad to see this state of the divide in the US. Even if you are against Trump, you’re not against him enough unless you want him dead. If you don’t want him dead, you must be a troll. What a sad state this debate has reached.
Removed by mod
Yea honestly I usually just avoid these kind of threads because any debate just seems pointless when it comes to US politics. I’m just glad I don’t live there but it scares me how much their politics matter for the rest of the world when it is such a shit show.
I’m embarrassed about our country’s politics, honestly.
The other man already does, for two years, things that made hundreds of thousands people die, get wounded, suffer, etc.
You are asking how people do not understand that you want Trump to be dead because he might hurt people you love, surely with your empathy skills you will be able to understand how people might hate Biden (and perhaps even want to see him dead as well) for what he did (and continues doing)?
Or is it only sad when the people you love are suffering? The other people do matter, right?
I keep seeing this repeated. What stopped him his first term and where are the corpses of the dead he is responsible for? Legitimately, link me to shit.
Likewise, if his side really were going for an overthrow of the government with the invasion of the senate building, why were there not more instances of gun violence? The republicans are more likely to own guns right? If they really wanted to overthrow shit, why didn’t they come strapped? If they came strapped, why was the only police death from a thrown fire extinguisher causing a brain bleed that killed the victim later that night?
There’s shit that doesn’t add up all over the place, and it bothers me that no one discusses it because they seem afraid to touch anything that might challenge the narrative of Trump’s terribleness and Biden needing to be infallible to win. Trump is more than reprehensible enough without hyperbole.
2020 COVID deaths are on his and his sycophants shoulders.
Not his first term but Trump seems ready to let Israel really take its gloves off and probably let the war expand into Lebanon and maybe Iran. Biden hasn’t really done shit but at least Israel seems somewhat afraid he might pull funding enough not to expand the war too much, trump will probably just give them a blank cheque.
Multiple people had firearms at the 1/6 coup attempt, this is well documented. I’m not sure why they never shot anyone, but it wasn’t for lack of firearms.